Curse

Redfeather1975 · Feb 28, 2007, 10:24 AM // 10:24

Sorry for posting this twice in the forums. One was within a topic concerning PVE and PVP. I decided it would be best to create new topic to discuss this in depth rather than in passing.

I see a great boon to creating 2 variants of each skill. 1 for PVE use and 1 for PVP use.
There are 2 very nice pros to implementing this system.

1) There is a lot more versatiliy in how skills can be balanced. If a skill is too powerful in PVE or being abused, ie. farming, only the PVE variant needs to be tweaked, thereby avoiding a negative impact on how the skill is used in PVP...and vice versa. There would be a LOT less complaining from the players and polarization of the communities after skill updates.

2) A great variety in gameplay can be created by changing the functionalities of skills to be unique in one mode over the other. That way a player familiar with skills and builds in PVE, could find a fresh new experience when trying to use those same skills and builds in PVP...and vice versa. This increases gameplay longevity quite a bit!

What is required is that each skill has 2 variants. The game's skill window has a drop down chooser to display either PVP effects for skills or PVE effects. The game also decides which variant is equipped when the player leaves an outpost. If they enter a PVP area the game equips the PVP variants of the skills and if the player enters any other type of area the game defaults to using the PVE variants. That way only PVP areas need to flag the change in what skill variant is used, just to make the whole process easier to control.

I am really just interested in the potential of making all skills fun to use and effective in both modes of play. There are many skills that a player who's only interested in one mode of play would never pick. And a player interested in both modes finds that half the skills are only useable in one mode and the other half only usable in the other.
It doesn't have to be that way. There is so much potential to increase this game's longevity already sitting there, just waiting to be set free.

Alias Thrasher · Feb 28, 2007, 02:28 PM // 14:28

Something needs to be done to fix the skill balance crisis that always comes up but im not sure what. I can see where you are coming from but I think the skills should actually be the same in pve and pvp with the exception of maybe allowing pve players to use all unlocked skills on pve characters when in pvp areas. What I think they need to do is just come up with other ways to balance them. For the people that were saying some skills were to powerful because they created too much armor when stacked with other skills, couldnt they just change the skill so it doesnt stack. Some skills are two powerful because of the way they are used in a spike, couldnt they just add something that would reduce the effectivness of the skill in a spike, not allow its effect to be multiplied on a single foe or if it is reduce the damage. I dont know, but I am tired of all the skill balance changes that are always needed to satisfy one group of players like the pvp community and just leaves the pve players high and dry, there needs to be a better way. I do pvp mostly but like pve too.

freekedoutfish · Feb 28, 2007, 02:35 PM // 14:35

/signed

Changing skills which effect both PvE and PvP is daft. It may improve and equal out gameplay in PvP, but the knock on effects can make PvE less enjoyable or playable.

And more-often then not, they are nerfs which PvE dont need.

Now we wait for the PvP players to say "well change your build then, and get used to the changes".

I could say exactly the same to PvP. Instead of complaining about over-powered skills and spells, how about you all change your builds to counteract them and defeat them, instead of just winging and having them nerfed with no regard for PvE.

So yeah (if its possible) seperate the two out, or consider the impacts more.

Redfeather1975 · Feb 28, 2007, 08:01 PM // 20:01

I just wanted to point out that it wouldn't change anything such as how skills are unlocked, unlocking a skill would still unlock it for both PVE and PVP.
It's just a way to allow finer control of how skills are balanced. And eventually allow the introduction of unique mechanics in a skill that compliment one mode of play, either PVP or PVE, without changing the mechanics of the same skill in the other mode of play. Making each mode more unique over time.

bamm bamm bamm · Feb 28, 2007, 08:24 PM // 20:24

I have to disagree. If there is a problem with skill balancing effecting PvE it's caused by large groups of dumb mobs that can't change their skillbar. Don't get me wrong, I think this is a problem just waiting to boil over, I just don't think you've ascribed it to the right source.

Balancing skills for PvP keeps game escalation in check (something that's an inevitability for the more asymmetric mmorpgs). If they were separated the PvE skills would get more powerful, the mobs would get bigger and more powerful, the skills would get even more powerful...

Redfeather1975 · Feb 28, 2007, 08:46 PM // 20:46

But bamm, don't you see how new skills and skill changes are making certain skills pointless in one mode or the other? With a new system, a skill can be tailored to work effectively in PVP, and it's variant tailored to work in all situations of PVE.
I see so many skills that are decent in one form of play, yet pointless in the other. That's the result of having to decide where the skill is most used, or should be most used, in either PVP or PVE. It doesn't have to be that way.

I never suggested this out of grief for a build I used being affected by a skill update. My enjoyment of the game comes from getting all the skills and playing with them and making builds that are fun. But I'm often seeing skills that are clearly not intended to be effective in both modes and I've felt that there is so much wasted potential. That skill exploration and experimentation could be so much more if all the skills were specifically designed to be useful in both modes.

This suggestion was inspired from Everquest 2, which has a PVP and PVE effect for every skill in the game. Their system gives slightly different functionality to some of the variants. That's so that certain functions can only be added to one variant because it may be great for PVP, but pointless in PVE or vice versa.

The suggested design is for flexibility, skill balancing efficency and it's appeal is for it's future potential to add unique mechanics to one mode without affecting the other. It increases the longevity of the game, and broadens the potential audience by offering a more fulfilling experience to those who aren't interested in both modes of play.

MithranArkanere · Mar 01, 2007, 05:31 PM // 17:31

PvE only skills: Yes.
Skills acting differently in PvP than in PvE: No.